“My Thoughts”

This is a reply to a member of the clergy of a church in Maryland. He shared his thoughts with an audience dealing with the beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – My reply starts where he ends – and then reviews the document he send/shared. My comments are in red – his are in black - chuck
Whereas he ends with saying, “I know what I believe and they know what they believe, and that is enough,” I’m not sure what he believes we believe. Much of what he’s written can constantly be found in anti-Mormon literature – of which there are over 20,000 texts mostly repeating one another. Hopefully to clarify – I searched for a Church since the age of 11 – had read the Bible cover to cover and was good friends with a Catholic Priest. We had regular meetings once a week for five years to discuss the Bible. When I was preparing to leave – he told me if I ever found what I was looking for – “A Church which met the description found in the Bible to tell him.” He died when I was in the Far East. For over 18 years – 1955-1973 I went to every church I could find – asking questions – and mostly being told not to return – and after being married – my bride was told she could come back but to leave me at home. My library extends to translations of documents from before 3000BC – unto the modern day. I study every day from the writings of those who were the foremost scholars of the time from 1000BC through to the Age of Reformation. Let me be quite clear – anyone can spit into the wind- not very smart to do but one can do it. When one attacks another’s belief – that is what they are doing. One, because it should be no concern of theirs and two, all it does is muddy the waters and cause confrontation (which is of the adversary). Why I choose to address this is because when one talks about what I believe and shares it with others – then they cause confusion – and again confusion is of the adversary. Below are my thoughts. chuck
From: Rev
To: The Class -, Md
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 13:59:50 -0400
Hi Guys,
Some folks have been asking me to reiterate the five theologies that separate the Mormon Church from all Mainline Christian Denominations, causing all other mainline Christian Denominations to affirm that Mormonism is another religion and not merely another denomination. Here goes...
The five theologies that cause every mainline Christian denomination to affirm that Mormonism is not a Christian religion, but is an entirely different religion are:
One would think anyone would start and end with the Book of Mormon – is it true or is it fiction? According to Smithsonian and others of very high report – it is True and according to all of the historical evidence uncovered since its original publication (none of which could or would’ve been available in 1830) – it is not only true but in harmony with the Holy Bible and the all of the relevant material taken from the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.
Was Joseph Smith, Jr. a Prophet of God – all the evidence points to the fact that he was! Yes, there are those who continue to maintain that he was a fraud however, the evidence is clear this is not the case. One can believe what they want but in the end only what is true will really matter.
Should the Bible be taken literally or just some here and there? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints takes the Holy Bible literally! And this alone separates it from all other Christian Religions – which use their various Creeds and own writings in addition to what Bible says. (I say this not as a criticism but as a fact – in that I used to belong to many of these churches growing up.)
1. Brigham Young, Joseph Smith's successor stated, "As man is God was, and as God is, man will become." This is a statement of equality with God that is fundamentally opposed by both Judaism and Christianity, and can be tracked back to the garden where the Devil tempted Adam and Eve with knowledge that was equal to God.
One might look at Genesis and then throughout the Bible – The Savior and Prophets tell those who are righteous might expect eternal life and live in the presence of the Father and the Son – which is what the Savior taught. What no one seems to address is what will we be doing in their presence – there are many secular guesses – but that’s all they are. Basically if one likes one guess better than another – that is their choice. However, it must be remembered – if you belong to one church or another – you should best believe and understand what they believe (i.e. their creeds, etc.) Basically the ‘couplet’ above is just that – a couplet – nothing more. What a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes if you are not a member – really shouldn’t matter – what you believe should. One who is a member of any church should seek to understand their own beliefs in harmony with their churches beliefs and not worry about anyone else.
It would be my guess – that many who continue to attack what I believe surely have something better to do with their time. My time is not useful in either attacking or demeaning them but to lift them up and wish them well.
2. Baptism for the Dead is prohibited by the bible. Mormon genealogies are the most extensive in the world because an ancestral link needs to be established if a Mormon is going to be baptized for a deceased person. If a person has not been baptized in the Mormon church, they cannot enter the innermost circle of heaven, while they can inhabit outer rings if they lead a good life and follow God the Father.
What did Paul teach? What did Job teach? As for those who will or will not make it to the Celestial Kingdom as described by Paul – that is called final judgment and only Heavenly Father and the Savior can make that judgment – neither you nor I can make such judgment. Again if one chooses to do Baptism for the Dead – why should that bother someone who doesn’t?
3. Blood Atonement - the theology that one's own blood is only sufficient to satisfy some sins. A theology of absolute grace is not part of Mormon theology.
Blood Atonement (as above #3) is not a teaching of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – for the Atonement of the Savior is the most important act done by one for another. Through this Atonement all men/women (those who’ve been born into mortality are or can be saved). Thus all are Saved through the Atonement of the Savior – however, being Saved is only the beginning and not the end in itself. Otherwise much of the Bible would have to be disregarded. Again as Paul talks of the various degrees of Glory – surely there must be something which assign one to one and one to another. And this is by their works! Surely the Theology of Absolute Grace (good time for a definition of Grace) –
Grace is the help or strength given through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. Through the grace of God, everyone who has lived will be resurrected—our spirits will be reunited with our bodies, never again to be separated. Through His grace, the Lord also enables those who live His gospel to repent and be forgiven.
Grace is a gift from Heavenly Father given through His Son, Jesus Christ. The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to enabling power and spiritual healing offered through the mercy and love of Jesus Christ.
Everyone on earth experiences physical death. Through the grace of Jesus Christ, all will be resurrected and will live forever (see 1 Corinthians 15:20-22; 2 Nephi 9:6-13).
Because of personal choices, everyone also experiences the effects of sin (see 1 John 1:8-10; Mosiah 16:4). These effects are called spiritual death. No one can return to the presence of God without divine grace. Through the Atonement, we all can be forgiven of our sins; we can become clean before God. To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8-9; James 2:17-22; 2 Nephi 25:23; 31:20).
The grace of God helps us every day. It strengthens us to do good works we could not do on our own. The Lord promised that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses (see Ether 12:27).
Scripture References
Acts 15:11
Romans 5:2
2 Nephi 10:24; 11:5
Grace is part and parcel of the Teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! Clarity of what one believes or doesn’t – does not come from the teachings of one person or another but from what is found in the Scriptures. (Note: in the late 1850’s one member did teach this false doctrine of Blood Atonement – and was excommunicated for his teachings.)
4. Theology of who Jesus is - the messiah for this world alone. Mormon theology states that some Mormon men will become messiahs for other worlds, and that Jesus was merely the messiah for this world. They are pseudo-Christian in their faith, claiming that they worship Jesus Christ and that only a fool would believe that they were not Christians - which is based on a thin veneer of monotheism stretched over a religion that is inherently polytheistic.
We worship Jesus Christ as the Savior of this world – the Son of Heavenly Father – and no one else! We respect the great men and women of this world – i.e. Prophets, Apostles and others noteworthy in doing the good for all mankind. In the pre-existence there was a counsel held in Heaven – which our Lord and Savior stepped forth on our behalf – we cheered – and thus both Justice and Mercy could be served and mankind could be saved.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not polytheistic we believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost – and according to Webster’s a Christian is one who believes Jesus is the Christ – or the Messiah of this world! That he may very well be of many worlds we do not know in our limited intelligences – but we know for sure He is for this world.
5. Denial of the trinity as a theology that makes god into a monster. Instead the Mormon church affirms that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are entirely separate entities.
One would think that the Creeds of Men/women override the Scriptures? Jesus Testified of doing what His Father sent him to do – at the Baptism by John – the Heavens opened and a voice was heard, “This is my beloved Son!” When Stephen was stoned – for what reason – that he said he saw the Savior standing at the right hand of the Father. The Father and the Son both have bodies of Flesh and Bone – this is testified to in all of the writings – the Scriptures and those who saw the Savior after the Resurrection around the world.
Really #4 and #5 are simple extensions of #1 which is the most fundamental break with Christianity.
Therefore, stating is that if you don’t believe in the Creeds of Men/women you cannot be a Christian – this to my understanding is false as Webster’s states that to be a Christian one has only to believe in Jesus Christ and follow his teachings.
There are some other theologies that are distracting but not part of a case that Mormonism is not a Christian religion. They include:
1. Polygamy that extends beyond simply one man with multiple wives, but an eternity of sexism where a woman's best aspiration is to be the first wife of a Mormon god. The wives of protestants and other men in heaven will be given to Mormon gods. Polygamy was part of the Hebrew traditions, but sexism is not nearly as strong even in Jewish history or antiquity as it is in the Mormon church.
Sexism in Heaven? We believe the family is eternal and that husbands and wives will be together forever – and with their eternal families – progenitors and posterity – this is taught in the Scriptures (Bible) – by the Prophets and by the Savior! Men and women (as husbands and wives) are heirs together forever – with equality in all things – with each having responsibilities while always being one with the other.
2. Prejudice in the theology that black people are an incarnation of angels that fought for Satan in the great war in heaven. While they can get into heaven, they have a long uphill battle to get there. If we take away a theology that all people are sons and daughters of God, it changes the way we look at other nations, races, or cultures in a fundamental way.
Anyone who fought for Satan – cannot have a physical body or be born into this world (see Bible) – and surely Blacks have as great a role in our Church as in any other Church – actually here in the Deep South we’re one of the few Churches which have both white and black (and all other races) in attendance and leadership. Further The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has more membership outside of the US than inside – thus it is a world religion.
3. Renunciation of all family ties with any Mormon son or daughter who renounces the faith. This kind of social pressure inhibits free will and the possibility of a person freely and joyfully accepting a relationship with God.
There is never a renunciation of all family ties – one loves and cherishes their children forever – however, at the age of eight (if one can be accountable) each person within a family make their own choices (agency is only in effect as long as one is in obedience to the Commandments of God) – and under no social pressure to be good. However, in the world of today it would seem everyone is under social pressure to be bad/evil – or as some would say, ‘simply free to do whatever they want – without any consequences.” The relationship with Heavenly Father – is one of each individual whether they belong to an organized church or not – and this is done by their obedience to the Commandments of God – “If you love me, keep my Commandments.” No one needs a church to show this love – if this were the requirement then many wonderful people would’ve been denied this choice – and that is not in keeping with either Justice or Mercy.
4. The Book of Mormon was revised from its original publication. This is not an issue until one considers that the BOM was said to be a completely inspired translation, and therefore infallible. This theology is the basis for all things in the bible being interpreted in light of the BOM rather than interpreting the BOM in light of the bible. Mormons universally believe that the BOM is more authoritative than the Bible in all matters of faith.
The Book of Mormon was updated (not revised, rewritten or changed in context or subject or was anything changed from the original inspired translation) – only in type setting (three errors in transmission not translation) and putting it into chapters and verses – much as was done with the Holy Bible.
In light of this one might be able to explain why 3,400 books of the Bible are missing – or some 10,000 letters? Or why each edition of the Bible adds and deletes material not suited to one’s current point of view. We use the standard KJV (approximately 1750’s) version of the Bible – as most Bible Historians – have openly admitted that since 1880 most new editions of the Bible are quite different –now numbering in the thousands. Basically it doesn’t matter if one reads the Bible – studying and praying – pondering – one can discern the truth and if not they can follow the admonition of James 1:5; “If anyone lack wisdom, ask of God who giveth liberally to all.”
The value of Scripture is that it is what the Father and the Son want all the people to know – that they would teach those of the ten tribes scattered around the world – and those who left Israel – was known not only the Greeks but to the early Christians. Ref. Origen quoting Clement of Alexandria in referring to ‘those who are not of this flock’ – would a loving God not have scriptures with all of his children?
5. Joseph Smith's original wife left the church and him, as did all of the individuals that were said to have seen the BOM after fasting and praying in order to be pure enough to see it. (I'll have to double check my facts on this one. I'm not quite certain that it is true. I am positive about his wife and a number of his followers, but I am not certain that it was all of the original group that left the religion before their deaths)
Emma Smith stayed behind in Nauvoo and she remarried. Before anyone judges her with final judgment – remember all she endured and went through – thus I believe it is unfair to bring her into such a discussion (and she never denied her testimony). However, as to the Three Witnesses and the Eight Witnesses – some did and some did not leave the Church – some who did leave returned – but note – none (not one) ever denied their testimony of what they had seen and touched – and they each indeed did see an Angel. And if you are discussing those who left the Church – many left the Church over the trials and tribulations – having their homes burned – loved ones killed (by the good citizens urged on by the media and clergy) – some left over certain doctrines – others because they wanted to do it their way – and some simply for power/greed/lust. Many were also excommunicated due to teaching false doctrine (i.e. the one who taught about Blood Atonement in the 1850’s - A. Lyman).
Wonderful qualities as a separate religion to applaud and admire:
1. Each Mormon goes on a 2 year mission when they graduate high school or college. This is only rivaled by the Moravian history of missionary work that inspired John Wesley and many others.
2. Generosity and hard work as basic ethics
In the end, if all can agree that Mormonism is not the same as Christianity in almost any way other than the fact that the Mormon church also uses the Bible as a holy book - Mormons should be applauded as making a positive impact on the world. The vast majority of Mormons are good people who live fulfilling and graceful lives that are focused on giving back to their community. They are another religion that is peace-loving and generous, focused on altruistic ideals and genuine desire to see humanity thrive. I personally know and love numerous friends who happen to worship in the Mormon church. We pretty much agree to disagree as to their status as Christians, and that's ok. I know what I believe and they know what they believe, and that is enough.
As to what we believe:
The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints



1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Joseph Smith

“My Thoughts”

cji
4/15/12

Sharing sincere love
wanting none to hide
finding logic and reason
fit for most any season
it is then in truth to abide
finding guidance above;

Confusion and contention
creating illusions of truth
needful to be careful
both humble and grateful
addressing old and youth
removing hostile intention;

My thoughts shared
hoping clarifying true
never attacking another
as all are sister/brother
understanding anew
knowing we each cared!

Copyright © 2012 – cji